The error of referring to Westerners as foreigners
This discussion will be divided into two parts. The first part will list the reasons why it’s incorrect to refer to Westerners as foreigners within China. The second will list reasons why it’s wrong to refer to Westerners as foreigners when residing in a Western country as a newer arrival than the Westerners themselves.
Now, it’s important to say that there is a legitimate use of the term “foreigner” as a seldom used, but necessary part of any language. It may have a purpose in certain situations where there is no other way of expressing a certain concept. In fact, as an Australian I find myself at a bit of a loss to provide an example of this. Maybe I’m wrong. We wouldn’t need to say “Foreigners should be assisted to find landmarks around Melbourne”. We could (and usually do) simply say “visitors”, “tourists”, “people” or “Japanese”, “Chinese” etc. However, though I have said that the term “foreigner” is a legitimate word, it should not be overused, as it definitely is by most Chinese I have come across, both in and outside of Australia.
First, a little about the terms used to refer to Westerners. There are a few outright deliberate insults which thankfully are less often used and needn’t receive further attention here. What I want to address are the terms 老外 laowai, and 外国人 waiguoren (the patronising and dumb expression 外国朋友 waiguo pengyou - “foreign friends” can be included with these two it’s basically used by Chinese who have come to some realisation that the terms 老外 laowai and 外国人 waiguoren are offensive). I’ve had it explained to me that 老外 and 外国人 are not 贬义词, i.e. derogatory. Ｉ beg to differ because 老 is not usually a term of endearment, in fact, it doesn’t even necessarily mean “old” in this context, rather it means “always doing something”, i.e. perpetual. This carries with it the idea that a “foreigner” was, is and always will be regarded as a foreigner no matter how long s/he remains in China. Furthermore, 老外 actually has two meanings, it means “foreigner”, but it can also mean “layperson”, “amateur”. It’s also not the prerogative of the namer to say whether a word is derogative, but the named. The word “foreign”， 外，”outside”, also has the connotations of something unwelcome, not only in English, but also Chinese. This doesn’t spring from imagination. Take, for example， 异, many dictionary definitions of this word are twofold: foreign & unwelcome.
Reasons why Westerners shouldn’t be called foreigners in China:
1) If Westerners are referred to as foreigners in China then China is still an undeveloped country. This is because many Westerners come to China as expatriates who bring skills to China. To refer to them as people who do not belong in the country is a disservice to China and impedes its development.
2) It’s a term that has an annoyingly unending effect. As mentioned above, 老 carries the meaning of unending or unstopping. And it certainly feels that way after being in China for some time and one still walks into a restaurant to hear groups of people saying 老外 among themselves. If a Westerner lives in China many years (and even those who don’t) they should be given the right to be treated as Chinese. This is not the case, because they are judged by their skin colour in the most simplistic manner.
3) To call Westerners foreigners in China is a huge display of ignorance on the part of the person using the word. This is because if you call a Westerner a foreigner it shows you have no idea whatsoever whether the person you are referring to is from Germany, Australia, America, Greece, Russia, etc, etc. White people are all thrown into the same basket - to the shame of the namer.
Reasons why Westerners shouldn’t be called foreigners in Western countries:
1) “Foreigner” means person who has come from another country and visits a new country. If we insist on using this term, it is far more appropriate to apply this term to the Chinese than to White Australians, as generally speaking White Australians have a longer history of being in Australia than the Chinese.
2) To use the term “foreigner” in Western countries shows the inability of the person using the term to change their vocabulary according to their situation. It actually is indicative of how much of a bad habit the term is even within China.
3) “Foreigner” is a term which is not useful within Australia, so Chinese people should adapt to the situation and use it less too. A Chinese person can visit Australia for a year (or even come and live in Australia permanently) and never actually hear an Australian person refer to him/her as a foreigner. This is very different to the Westerner’s experience in China. Most Chinese find an excuse to use the term foreigner when speaking with Westerners regardless of the topic of conversation. If you are a white person visiting China you may hear the word 外国人 or 老外 an average of once a day, unless you sit at home doing nothing but watching TV, but if you’re watching CCTV9 you’ll probably hear the term there anyway.
If you’re a Japanese or other Asian person visiting China you won’t be called 外国人 or 老外 much at all. This is because Chinese people don’t make the distinction between a local and a “foreigner” on the basis of country of origin, rather it is skin colour. Sometimes Chinese people pretend that the term is not used so simplistically and is not based on race, but other Chinese people are more honest than that.
It is occasionally said to me that it’s important to adapt to the culture of the country to which we’re going - in this instance China （入乡随俗） - and not be concerned with such labels as being concerned about it is unChinese. This is hypocritical doublespeak because it is not the Westerner who is failing to adapt, it is the Chinese who persist in labelling. Adapt to the culture? Sure! Treat me as though I was Chinese. Help me adapt.
老外，不是贬意词，有些调侃的味道而已！
sigh! she obviously didn’t read my post at all.
reread your article again,上次是跳跃式阅读，
难免有断章取义之嫌。
网络阅读，已经把人变的对阅读传统习惯失去了基本的耐心！
absoultely,you are right;
especially you used the “basket” ,i think magnicicent,it make peolple have a feeling,you live in bunch of chinese something.
you article can make people ponder ,that mean’s it is valuable!
no matter is recognise or object.
昨天见你真高兴.因为你跟我像朋友那样聊你的想法,很认真的样子,交流一下思想真好呐.^_^
其实我知道,当别人见到中国人或者其他亚洲人的时候会说:you Asian!@#$%%$##, 我就很不爱听,因为会让我觉得有些歧视的意思,为什么不能恭恭敬敬叫名字呢!!!有一次,有一个好朋友也叫james,看到一本卖鞋子的杂志然后对我说:一看就知道是Asian的杂志.我当然知道他是无心随便说这句话,但是呢,听了就觉得很不爽,就算是Asian的杂志又能怎样?不好?不想看了?虽然他绝对没有那个意思.
所以呢,我完全理解你的感受.被叫外国人当然会有一种别排斥的感觉.会纳闷这个社会怎么就不能容纳我?!
我很早之前就在自己的日记里写过一篇文章,叫”别把自己当外人”.就是在告诉我自己,无论走到哪里,都尽量把自己的心态调整为”我是这里的人,我是主人,因为我生活在这里了,和本地人一样的生活着,干嘛总是觉得自己是外地人呢? 自己的心态是一个特别特别重要的因素,如果连自己都会犹豫着说自己是不是外地人,那内在气势上就差出本地人一大截.
另外一点,在中国和在澳大利亚是有区别的,你看看澳大利亚的街上再想想中国街上的人,哪个地方的人种比较多?我觉得是澳大利亚. 黑眼睛,蓝眼睛,绿眼睛,棕眼睛,还有各种颜色头发的人,到处都是,不足为奇. 可是中国呢,比较来说,大部分还都是中国人多吧.所以在中国,当偶尔看到不一样皮肤,头发,眼睛的人的时候,一般的中国人都会说:看那个老外!@##$$.他们说这样的话只是表达他们很少见这样的朋友.换位思考,如果中国和澳大利亚一样,出门就到处是不同种族不同样子的人,根本见怪不怪了,谁还会说”看那老外”这样的话. 之所以这样是因为日常生活中,打交道的往往都是中国人.
关于语言,我觉得这个东西很有趣,我很喜欢,因为不同语言有不同体系,当从一个转到另一个,就需要想一想,然后才能流利的进行另一种语言的运用.就像是火车转路线,从A线转到B线,需要放慢一下速度,待转入到另一条轨迹了,才开始加速或是正常前行. 这个都是一样的. 我想是我的英语还不够好,希望到不久的一天,可以在不同的语种间转换自由,怎么说都能很快的交流. 我现在还依旧听不懂别人在讲什么,有时候啦.
总之,我爸爸跟我讲过,人的潜力是无限的,咱走到哪里就说到哪里. 我领悟他的意思是, 不管环境怎样,我们已经身在其中了,好也罢坏也罢 ,我们都要去面对,都要去生活,人嘛,要想橡皮筋那样才厉害.(弹性指数大^_^)所以当一个人对环境fussy的时候,不如换位思考一下怎么去适应他好了, 不是说顺从,而是说我们先去适应,然后在一点一点体现自己的价值,因为我们都有价值….irrelevant personal information deleted…,这就是你的价值.虽然到中国依旧会有人叫你外国人,那就让他们慢慢了解你的不同吧…..期待你的精彩吓倒他们,交流真的很重要,当了解的多了,才能更加是朋友.
A hugely long and largely irrelevant reply.
Any imagined instances on your part of discrimination against Asians in Australia are totally outweighed by Westerners routinely being referred to as foreigners in the country they were born in (though most of them don’t know it’s happening). You stubbornly refuse to understand my post because you still see the world from a Chinese perspective, which is comfortable for you because most of the other people who live and work near Melbourne Central are Asian. You certainly have plenty of company to justify your view.
You even say “一般的中国人都会说:看那个老外!@##$$.他们说这样的话只是表达他们很少见这样的朋友” Translated this means, basically, “Most Chinese will point and say ‘look at the foreigner’, they’re only saying it to express their surprise because they don’t see so many foreign friends”. I addressed the expression “外国朋友 - foreign friends” in my original post. Once again, it’s patronising and stupid and reflects the moronic nature of the person who made it. If you call me a foreign friend you should come back to reality because I’m not a foreigner and I’m not your friend.
Pure and simple. It is wrong to use the term foreigner to refer to Westerners in Australia. It is also a term hugely overused in China. If you agree that’s good. You have a brain. If you disagree I recommend you go back to a place where there are less “foreigners” around to infect your precious life.
Again, you spend a lot of time trying to convince me that it’s my responsibility to adapt. No. It’s you and your countrymen that need to adapt. Until you adapt you are underdeveloped, not to mention racist.
You seem to justify the use of the ugly terms 老外，外国人, etc. The only justifiable response to my post on your part would be “我同意,他们说错了” - (I agree, they are wrong).
首先,Pure and simple. It is wrong to use the term foreigner to refer to Westerners in Australia我同意况且压根没提过.而且郑重告诉你,我从来没有认为过.你也不必大动肝火.
其次,有关outweighed discrimination against Asians in Australia ,我并没有这个用意,大概是我用的例子不恰当.没有说明什么.
再次,You stubbornly refuse to understand my post because you still see the world from a Chinese perspective, which is comfortable for you because most of the other people who live and work near Melbourne Central are Asian.是,我周围是很多Asian,而且我来墨尔本也才1年,当然认识的人有限, 但是我所表达的并没有说我把你当成foreigner的意思. 我也当然想认识很多不是Asian的朋友.
但是不可否认这种现象发生着, 人不能学着掩耳盗铃吧. 那么,有现象是一定会有原因的.如果要究其根源,因素多了去了. 如果13亿中国人里面能有5亿是不Asian的人,那谁还会说”那个老外…”这句话,因为他们见怪不怪了.拿香港做个例子,因为香港被英国殖民过,所以当地英国人,法国人,美国人都很多,大家都习惯了,而且英法美这些人嘛也都是香港人,后来香港收复,他们也都是中国人.没有任何人奇怪.
但是不得不提的是,以前来中国的外国人往往是经商的,旅游的,教学的,搞科研的,或者有什么重大贡献的人, 因为中国他不是个移民国家,那么多人口还怎么接收移民?因此普遍中国人的印象就是他们是短期在中国的人, 导致后来都这样觉得. 这样的思维条件反射就是这样子,虽然是错的.但这个错误的现象已经让很多人有这样的条件反射了.我知道那是站在一些中国人的片面的角度在讲这个问题.
可是,我认为你说的确实有道理,但你也只是片面的站在澳洲人的角度看这个问题.不是么? 你认为你在中国住了那么就能讲流利的中国话,怎么还是有人叫你外国人,这个很不公平,这就体现了澳洲人的特征了,因为澳洲人讲公平\权利, they usually protest or fight for human rights, women’s rights, children’s rights, ect. 你也会这样去丈量吧. 另外,你认为Asian来到这里都没有被当作foreigner对待,怎么到了他们国家就当你是外国人?这样想是没错,我同意,但是太主观, 因为你的想法不能让大家都客观接收,他们同样会主观片面的去定义foreigner.
所以我的意思就是,你在澳洲人的方式思考,是对的.他们以中国人的方式思考,他们还觉得他们对呢. 两个思想没有碰到一点.
但在香港,根本没有人在意这个说法,也根本不稀罕老外,或者外国人.
所以,如果你不想听别人叫你”老外”在中国境内,随着时间的推移和交流,会有不同的思想变化.或者选择一个你觉得合适你的地方好了. 因为现象就是现象.我只是客观讲
I really don’t want this very clear-cut issue to disintegrate into a for-and-against argument.
Interestingly, some friends and I went to a Sichuan restaurant last night, in the end deciding not to join the long queue.
One or two members group of Chinese people queueing said “laowai” when they saw us.
It’s just disgusting. And, actually, if it were the other way around, and in English, it would be illegal.
I’m in China, I’m a foreigner, and a 老外, as are all my foreign friends。When i’m in the UK I have foreign friends who are foreigners and when I need to I freely say that without causing offence.
To me it seems like you’re raising two issues. The first is the definition of “foreigner” and 老外。The second is that you get a lot of attention paid to you in china because of your skin.
Go look at a dictionary. See what foreigner means. Here are some examples: “a person who comes from a foreign country;”, “A person from a foreign country;”. Now I guess you want to argue what foreign means?
In your post you say “We could (and usually do) simply say “visitors”, “tourists”, “people” or “Japanese”, “Chinese” etc. ” And I agree, in that situation you foreigners wouldn’t be the best word because people from other Australian cities would be excluded. But, what if you wanted to say something like “If you are not a citizen of Australia you need a special visa to work in Australia”. Would saying “Foreigners need a special visa to work in Australia” offend you?
So, foreigner doesn’t offend me at all, and I mean no offence when I say it, and people dont take offence. 老外 is slightly different as my Chinese is not great, but I’m still not offended. What you said about 老being a negative character…. look at some other examples that use it:
老伴
老板
老辈
老绷
老表
老兵
老大人
老东家
老佛爷
老哥
As i said, my Chinese is not that great, but i believe all/most of these are not insults and are in fact slightly honorific or polite titles. Also, I doutb that many people would say it if it was rude/impolite. I have good Chinese friends who call me 老外(not very often)，外国人，外国朋友 and these are normal people I go out drinking with.
Secondly, its clear why we （外国人）get more attention, because of the colour of out skin. We are unusual. In the UK/Aus asian/black/Indian/white/whatever are not unusual and haven’t been for several (hundred?) years. The same thing happens in japan, not so much in Tokyo, but out in the countryside i’ve made young children cry because of “foreign” looks (i’m 2 metres tall and at that time had long hair). I’m not offended, i’m usual to them, its not they’re fault. You cant blame a child for crying when he sees something unusual and that he or she considers scary. And you cant blame the parent for not teaching a 2 year old that foreigners aren’t bad. The parents were very embarrassed, and tried to comfort the kid, eventually bringing him over to meet me, but he got scared and started to cry again. Again, no offence taken, the parents were clearly nice people but the kid was just scared of the unknown. Either that or he was rascist. I think he must have been rascist because I was with my girlfriend at the time, she was a foriegner as well (also british) but of asian descent. He didnt cry because she wasnt japanese. Surely thats rasism? Same as when my japanese/korean friends are walking down the street in china they dont get the looks or the “外国人“ attention that I do.
Either that, or, maybe, just maybe, its because 99.99999% of white people (I dont know any white people who have chinese citizenship, but i can accept there may be a few) in china are not chinese, and 99.99999% of asian people in china are chinese. Clearly not the same in the UK/Aus. In china you can safely assume a white person is from another country and doesnt speak chinese as his/her native language. In western countries this is clearly not the case. Our countries are a lot more multi-cultural, or at least has citizens going through the public education system (which uses English) of many different skin colours.
Vietnam is much the same.
Malaysia is similar.
Thirdly, there is just a language difference. In Chinese things are often said that would be inappropriate in English. 你要去玩吗？I still find that funny and like to ask 你要跟我去玩吗？In English this would be weird or sexual. Do you want to go and play with me? Would you like to go somewhere and play? ITS A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE! Accept what the native speakers tell you and believe its not offensive!
And, Merry Christmas!
I never gave this word very much thought until I met a Chinese man in his forites who referred to me as laowai in England (I was a foreigner there but so was he). This made me think that perhaps our dictionaries are wrong: 外国人 doesn’t actually mean “foreigner” but something more along the lines of “non-Chinese”. Think about the relationship between 中国 ~ 外国 (and so, 中国人~外国人): surely 中 and 外 are antonyms, so this would seem to be the interpretation consistent with the internal logic of the Chinese language.
As pointed out before, your interpretation of 老 is incorrect. It can only mean “perpetual” when followed by a verb. When used to referto a person, it can “indicate affection or familiarity”, as in 老婆、老公、老妈、老乡 etc., or respect (some degree of sub-ordination) as in 老板、老外. As you might have noticed, many Chinese are positively minded (and sometimes feel inferior to) the pale-skinned (because we are richer than they are, on average), and negatively minded towards (superior to) the dark-skinned (because they are poor than the Chinese, on average). There is a real issue of racism towards individuals of African/South Asian heritage in China, which you should arguably be more upset about than the racism towards the white.
English and Chinese have very different histories: Chinese has always been a national language, whilst English has been a language of imperialism, colonolization and a number of multicultural states. Moreover, different languges have different norms. For example, “foreigner” may not be used very often in English (probably because of its history), but English has “expatriate” which just doesn’t exist in many other language. In addition, I’ve found that some English speakers (especially in North America) are very sensitive to curse words, whilst they are used on a very frequent and non-offensive basis in many European languages. By this I mean to say that it’s just not appropriate to apply the norms of one language to another.